Sikorsky S-42 Clipper
Sikorsky S-42 Clipper  (click photos to enlarge)

The Development of the S-42

The Sikorsky S-40 had laid the groundwork for Pan Am’s Latin American route system, but Pan Am was never fully satisfied with its compromise design,.  Even before the S-40 first entered service, Pan Am technical adviser Charles Lindbergh was developing specifications for a streamlined airliner that could truly span the oceans and fulfill Pan Am’s intercontinental ambitions.

Two aircraft manufacturers made credible bids for Pan American’s next airliner; Igor Sikorsky wanted the chance to build improve the S-40, whose limitations he fully understood, and Glenn Martin wanted to expand his business from military to commercial aircraft.  To hedge his bets against either company’s possible failure, and to stimulate competition, so that Pan Am would not be overly dependent on any one firm, Juan Trippe accepted both bids and ordered three planes from each company.  On October 1, 1932, Pan Am placed a firm order for three S-42 aircraft, with an option for seven additional planes.

S-42 Design and Innovations

The S-42’s incorporated several important technological innovations.  The plane’s all-metal construction, using the new aluminum allow known as duralumin, provided the strength and structural integrity to lift a remarkable payload of fuel, passengers, and cargo.  To support that payload while providing the high-speed needed for fast cruising over long distances, along with stability in rough weather, the S-42 was designed with a remarkably high wing loading of 28.6 pounds per square foot; the wing loading of the S-42 was more similar to that of a high-performance racing plane, and was more than twice the wing loading of the Ford Trimotor, the most popular American airliner of the day.  Such a high wing loading required other significant innovations, including a highly efficient airfoil, hydraulic flaps to lower takeoff and landing speeds, and newly-designed variable pitch propellers to provide both high power during takeoff and fuel efficiency during cruise.

S-42 Flights and History

The first S-42 was flight tested in April, 1934, and the aircraft quickly demonstrated its impressive abilities.  On April 26 the plane lifted more than eight tons of payload to 16,000 feet, and on May 17 it climbed to a record of altitude of 20,407 feet while carrying over 11,000 lbs.

On August 1, 1934, Pan American conducted its own flight test of the S-42 before accepting the new plane into its fleet.  Pan Am chief pilot Edwin Musick, Pan Am technical advisor Charles Lindbergh, and Sikorsky test pilot Boris Sergievsky flew the S-42 on a 1,242 mile course, carrying the equivalent weight of 32 passengers, a crew of five, and 2,000 Ib. of mail and cargo.  The plane averaged 157.5 MPH during the test and set eight world records for speed, payload, and altitude.

On August 16, 1934, the S-42 flight-tested by Musick and Lindbergh was put into service on Pan Am’s Latin American routes out of Miami, and two days later the plane was christened Brazilian Clipper in Rio de Janeiro by the wife of Brazilian president Vargas.  The new plane cut the travel time from Miami to Buenos Aires down to just five days, compared to the eight days required by the S-40.  The S-42 was used extensively on Pan American’s Latin American routes and became a familiar sight at Miami’s Dinner Key terminal.

Sikorsky S-42 at Miami
Sikorsky S-42 at Miami

While the S-42’s impressive performance was a tremendous advance over Pan American’s previous aircraft, it had been designed to circle Caribbean and cross the Atlantic, and did not have the range for passenger service across the Pacific.  But while the 2,400 mile distance from San Francisco to Honolulu was beyond the capacity of an S-42 carrying passengers, the longer-range Martin M-130 was still behind schedule when Pan Am needed to begin survey flights across the Pacific.  The second S-42 built by Sikorsky, therefore, was stripped of all its passenger accommodations and fitted with extra fuel tanks to make the long flight between California and Hawaii.

The stripped-down plane, named Pan American Clipper, pioneered Pan Am’s routes across the Pacific during the spring, summer, and autumn of 1935.

S-42 in Hawaii after 1935 Pacific survey flight
S-42 in Hawaii after 1935 Pacific survey flight

S-42 Passenger Accommodations

The S-42 accommodated 32 passengers for daytime flights, in four separate compartments with eight seats each.  (The ship’s relatively short range precluded the need for the sleeping berths provided on subsequent clippers.)

S-42 Technical Details

  • Length: 69′
  • Wingspan: 118′ 2″
  • Max Gross Takeoff Weight:  38,000 lbs S-42, 40,000 lbs S-42A, 42,000 lbs S-42B
  • Engines: Four Pratt & Whitney Hornet radial engines (7oo hp S-42, 750 hp S-42A and S-42B)
  • Propellers: Hamilton-Standard 3-blade variable pitch
  • Max Speed: 190 MPH
  • Cruising Speed:  150-160 MPH
  • Fuel capacity: 1.240 gallons
  • Crew:  5 (2 pilots, engineer, radio operator, and steward)
  • Normal cruising range: 1,200 miles
  • Max cruising range: 3,000 miles, stripped and equipped with cabin fuel tanks
Sikorsky S-42
Sikorsky S-42
Sikorsky S-42
Sikorsky S-42

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Steve TruittMel HughesEd Cochran 808-331-1251Stacey FinchDouglas Westfall Recent comment authors
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Steve Truitt
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Steve Truitt

My FIL, Ted Gurney was an aeronautical engineer at P&W and worked closely with Sikorsky in developing the S-42. He was aboard an S-42 when it broke a SS exhaust collector in the mouth of the Orinoco. This was part of scoping the routes south as well as selecting a suitable exhaust collector material given the fact of salt spray. FIL had taken a course in blacksmithing while getting his AE degree at MIT and was able to weld the break…but the final exhaust collectors were of porcelain lined cast iron, heavy but durable!

Mel Hughes
Guest

It’s fascinating to note that the plane shown at the top of this page is the one that crashed in Port-of-Spain, Trinidad. Still more oddly, the newspaper must have gotten their info from an old sock as they listed the wingspan at 114 feet and the weight of the plane as 19 tons. Three people drowned in this crash, two pilots and the steward, and several more were injured. Glad to find this website as I could not find the plane model noted in the newspapers.

Ed Cochran 808-331-1251
Guest
Ed Cochran 808-331-1251

Aloha
I have a Large 24×17 framed black and white picture from the 30’s of the chipper Tail # NR 822M or NR823M in flight with Diamond Head in Hawaii.

Stacey Finch
Guest
Stacey Finch

Anyone out there via historians or those who might know. My grandfather William de Lima flew for Pan Am his route was Miami to Rio. He was a 2nd officer. My father passed away before telling me of my grandfathers true history. This would be circa 1934?? Thank you.

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Dear Casey: Yes, what year is the film? Please tell me more or contact me through my email Paragon@SpecialBooks.com or call (714) 771-0652.

Best Regards, Douglas Westfall

casey addington
Guest
casey addington

I have beautiful color film footage of this plane landing and being towed into shore out of the water . It is on 8mm film . It has never been publicly viewed or copied . I am interested in selling if anyone is interested please email me @ casey.addington@yahoo.com and make an offer

casey addington
Guest
casey addington

I stumbled across this post while researching this sea plane . I have great color footage of one landing and being towed on shore . It is on 8mm film . I am looking to sell it and noticed you offered someone else for footage . Hope this finds you let me know .

Ken McDermott
Guest
Ken McDermott

Karl,

What is your facebook page? I’d like to see the photos.

Thanks,

Ken

Tom Maxwell
Guest
Tom Maxwell

Does anyone know if dinnerware was made especially for PAA flying boats? The plates, saucers, etc. would have a motif very similar to that of some that are being sold on eBay -plane either taking off or landing in a tropical type background-except the color is a bright blue on the white china background. While the memory is fuzzy, in 1973 I found these all broken up on Canton Island in the Phoenix Islands- now a part of Kiribati. It was absolutely forbidden by the DoD authorities to remove artifacts, so most likely the broken pieces are still there. I… Read more »

Savage Frieze
Guest
Savage Frieze

I’m wondering about the dates of production for the Sikorsky Pan Am Clippers. My Dad said he worked on the construction under the supervision of a tough old Scotsman. Since he was born in 1923, he had to have been pretty young. He did drop out of high school to help with the wwII war effort. He also claimed to have been a “gopher” on the first helicopter project, was watching as Mr. Sikorsky flew up to retrieve his lunch and deliver his briefcase etc. As my Dad was quite the salesman I’ve often wondered about these stories. He was… Read more »

Carlos Alvarez
Guest
Carlos Alvarez

Thank you for waiting for me in his email, wish if possible more photos of the interior of the S42 Sikorsky seaplane.

Doug Miller
Guest

Hi Jill:
If you would, please get back to me at panamweb@gmail.com about your photos. Thanks much,
Doug Miller

Doug Miller
Guest

The Pan Am Historical Foundation (check out : http://www.panam.org) is always looking for photos, documents, and other items related to the history of Pan American Airways.

Please feel free to contact me at panamweb@gmail.com

Thanks!

Doug Miller
Guest

Hi Karl:
I’ve seen pix of your grandfather’s work. Would love to see more. Please email me: panamweb@gmail.com THX!

Fred Nicolau
Guest

Hi Mr. Brand, I am a researcher at the Rampa Foundation in Natal, Brazil. We don’t have any info about S-42s making regular stops at Natal. Only once, one S-42 “Antilles Clipper” got engine problems and landed close to Natal and got adrift, they were rescued later. Do you have any info regarding which Pan Am plane stoped at Natal regularly? We know that B-314 made regular stops at Natal after Pear harbor attack, but before we don’t know. Panair do Brasil, a Pan Am subsidiary used to stop at Natal with its S.43s. Please, any help is a big… Read more »

Carlos Alvarez
Guest
Carlos Alvarez

of Sikorsky S42, I would like to know like this one the engineering in the field of two direction(leadership) rudders.

Carlos Alvarez
Guest
Carlos Alvarez

I ask for a photograph on the cabin of the aircraft Sikorski S42 especially that of navigation.Thank you

Glenn B.  Iverson
Guest
Glenn B. Iverson

The photo you recommended is of a flight engineer at his station on an Martin M-130 not the S-42. Glenn

James Brand
Guest
James Brand

I would love a copy. I’m writing a few chapters in my mother’s bio. involving a trip south from Miami.

Jim

James Brand
Guest
James Brand

I’m writing a few chapters about the trip from Miami south to Rio. Would greatly appreciate a copy of the memoir of the flight from Miami to the south.

Jim

James Brand
Guest
James Brand

National Geographic, December 1936, Page 675

Ken Slagle
Guest
Ken Slagle

John my grandpa Joie Carrero flew 2,173,000 miles in the boats between 1930 and 1940 I know the names of some of the early stewards if that helps.He worked for Pan Am from 1929
to 1980 he was the steward on the first four engine flight for Pan Am Nov 19th 1931 with
Charles Lindbergh-Captain Basil Rowe-Joie Carrero-and John Donahue mechanic -Igor Sikorsky
went for the ride also from Miami to the Cristobal Canal Zone and back.He was Pan Am’s first
million mile club member for stewards and the special guest at Pan Am’s 50 year anniversary
Oct 28th 1977

Glenn B. Iverson
Guest
Glenn B. Iverson

I ave a book about the Flight engineer 95% complete – need pictures of the flight engineers station on the Sikorsky S-42 – can anyone help. Glenn

George E. Warren
Guest
George E. Warren

Hi Karl. If you will tell me how to access your Facebook site I will do so. Thank you, George

Karl
Guest
Karl

I will have to scan the old newspaper article I have and send it. It may take awhile.

No I was 4 when we lived in Florida but I do not know exaclty where. The S-42 was long gone when I came along. I’ willsedn the pix in the next few days, meanwhile can you access my Facebook? Karl

Karl

George E. Warren
Guest
George E. Warren

Hi Karl. Just read your Aug. 20 reply, to my reply to you, about your Grandfather’s S-42. Thank you sir for your quick response. Learning the explanation about this plane beside Route 27 after more than 60 years was like a breath of fresh air!! I do hate to ask, because of others wanting the same pictures, but I would be very grateful to you if you would Email them to me as well, at your convenience of course at: georgewarren70@netzero.com. I’m curious, did you ever live in Hialeah? – and, would you tell me how I can find the… Read more »

Karl
Guest
Karl

Whoops! Should have speall checked 😉

Karl
Guest
Karl

Hi George, The pix are up on my Facebook page and open to public viewing! Otherwise send me your e-mail address. I have been remis in sending these pix to those who asked but I will send them out all at once to those who asked. Since in my iunderstanding that there were on 10 S-42 built and a few were know to have been destroyed there is a high probability that the plane you are refrreing to is in fact the same one in my pictures. I so not know any more details about exactly which one it is… Read more »

George E. Warren
Guest
George E. Warren

Questions at large: Did the CAB investigate and produce a report of the Samoan Clipper disaster? How have we learned that Ed Musick was dumping fuel – did he radio that he intended to do so after discovering the engine problem, to lighten up the fully fueled 42 so he could return to Samoa to land safely? If so, was that his only option, and didn’t the procedure go against the best judgement of the aviation experts, including his? Thank you very much, George Warren.

George E. Warren
Guest
George E. Warren

Hello to you Karl. Karl you have no idea how happy you have made me. I am certain that you have cleared up a ‘back-burner’, mystery that I’ve been trying to resolve since I was a boy. It begins in the late forties when I, as a young boy would accompany my Dad on 2 hour car trips from Miami – to South Bay, near Lake Okechobee, to oversee some farmland. Although there is no relevance, I will mention here that our Dad was a career mechanic with Pan Am who began at the Dinner Key Marine Base, working on… Read more »

John Pare
Guest
John Pare

I am trying to identify by name and position the seven crew members who took the S-42B Bermuda Clipper on its first flight carrying U.S. mail from Baltimore to Bermuda on March 16, 1938. I have a document that they signed but some of the signatures are not legible nor do they list their duties aboard the plane.

Dan
Guest

Karl
Love to see your pictures of the s-42 conversion. I have seen the martin conversion in Miami.
If you could email to this address I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks
Dan

Chris
Guest
Chris

No problem. I really appreciate it.

Karl
Guest
Karl

Hi Chris,
I will try to e-mail you these pix. It will probably be a number of separate e-mails due to file size.
Karl

Karl
Guest
Karl

Hi Bigfootwallace,
I will try to e-mail you these pix. It will probably be a number of separate e-mails due to file size.
Karl

Chris
Guest
Chris

Hi Karl,

I would love to see some pictures of your Grandfather’s plane. I’ve been toying with a similar idea for a long time and would love to see it in real life. You are the first I’ve heard of someone else having this idea and bringing it to life.

Any chance you could send me some of your pictures? I’d be very appreciative. I’ve been picturing it in my head for years and have tons of sketches, but have yet to see the real thing. Address is chelton504@gmail.com

Thanks, Karl

Mercedes Kubik
Guest

I’m grateful for that blog.Much thanks again. Much obliged.

Bigfootwallace
Guest
Bigfootwallace

Thank you, Brian!

Bigfootwallace
Guest
Bigfootwallace

Thanks, Karl, for the reply!
What an intriguing idea. Your Grandfather sounds to be an inventive man. I would very much enjoy seeing your photos of the conversion. Would they be emailable (maybe not a word as yet, but it should be). I’m not sure if my email is readily accessible, but if not it is boquillas@verizon.net

Brian Nickens
Guest
Brian Nickens

@ Bigfoot: Passengers entered and exited the S-42 on top of the fuselage near the tail. There was a small hatch and steps that led down into the passenger cabin.

Karl
Guest
Karl

In 1947, my Grandfather purchased an S-42 and converted it into a floating home for a family of five and their dog. There was a hatch door just aft of the cockpit on the port side. I have some cool pictures of the hatch and the home docked in a canal near Miami.

Bigfootwallace
Guest
Bigfootwallace

Can anyone tell me how passengers boarded the S-42. One of the above postcard photos appears to be directing passengers to a possible top hatch entrance. Is that correct?

Nick Lappos
Guest

John,
I am sure our folks at the Sikorsky Aircraft archives would like to make copies of your film and photos/negatives. Can you contact me so I can introduce you to them? They can help you out with details, I am sure, as to the exact aircraft, and its history.
Thanks
Nick Lappos
Former Test Pilot, now an executive for Sikorsky Aircraft Corp.

fred nicolau
Guest

Finding your website was a dream come true. Many Boeing 312 Clippers stoped by Natal, Brazil from 1941 to 1946. Please if you know anybody that can tell us something about them, let me know! Congratulations. As far as I know S-42s never landed in Natal, am I correct? thank you

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Van: I have two pages layed out for the book, I’d like to show you. It’s a PDF. Where can I send it.
Best, Doug

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Van: You say you traveled to St. Thomas with mary Ann and Dan, your sister and brother. When did your Mother go there?
Best, Doug

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Van: Thanks again. Thought maybe you’d be writing a book.
Best, Doug

V. G. Baker
Guest
V. G. Baker

As I mentioned before, it’s part of my memoires to the Grandkids. V. R. VGB

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Dear Van: Just received your envelope of your story — thanks it’s really great. I see it has page numbers — is this from a printed story or book?

Thanks again.
Best Always, Doug

don barker
Guest
don barker

let me find his url.

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Don: Unless you have a negative from a private photo, there could be hundreds. What is his website URL?
Best, Doug

don barker
Guest
don barker

THE PRINT i have is ljust like the one that Dan Grossman tacked up on web-site.,
How did that happen… my print was found in trunk., and looks just like the one Dan has, even the same # on orig print

could it be that PAA just gave these out for all to have ????

don barker
Guest
don barker

I wil get you the orig print for you to scam., I I am into photography., not electrnc scanning.

will send it to your orange, ca address….right ?

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Dear Don: That’s the China Clipper alright, an M-130 and the first one delivered in Oct of 1935. Crashed upon landing Jan 1945 at Trinidad — 23 of 30 died. A scan would be better — I require 300dpi at size. So a 4×5 would be scanned at 200%. I cannot scan an inkjet print. What ever you can do would be greatly appreciated.
Best Always, Douglas

don barker
Guest
don barker

the NC # is 14716., and one should know if its round windows or sq, as the N number cannot be transferred.. this is SWEET SIXTEEN… I do have the small orig print, if you need that for scanning, but the re-scan if beautiful. advise., dbarker

don barker
Guest
don barker

Douglas…. I have sent Dan Grossman of ATL some prints of sweet sixteen., and he is going to post it on his webpage or internet…. if you wish a print, contact me,
at the address noted above., the zip code is 28616
CONOVER NC, THIS PHOTO WAS TAKEN (I later found out) at Pearl H area., above the aircraft are around 15 Navy aircraft flying overhead, going west… most likely to a carrier or on training mission. the NC-16 is shown parked at the dock. advise/

Douglas Westfall
Guest

DON BAKER: Sorry, zipcode is incorrect:
The Paragon Agency
P.O. Box 1281
Orange, CA 92856
Tks, Doug

V. G. Baker
Guest
V. G. Baker

Good evening Mr. Westfall: I have received your request for my measly info on our trip to P.R. in ’41. I will contact you Monday. In the meantime, please have a great weekend. Most respectfully, Van Baker,

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Dear John: If possible, I’d like to see a high-res scan of the photo — and may be able to tell.
Sikorsky S-40s have square windows (three were built) and S-42s have round windows (ten were constructed.) So, from the start you can tell an S-40 from an S-42. All S-40s made it into WWII and were scrapped in 1943 by the navy. Several S-42s crashed, sank, exploded, etc.

Would you be willing to have the 8mm converted to DVD, I’d pay to have it done.

Best Always, Douglas

Douglas Westfall, Publisher
The Paragon Agency, Producers of America’s History

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Dear Vanuel: PLEASE, that would be incredible. What ever you have would be greatly appreciated.
Douglas Westfall
The Paragon Agency — Producers of “My American History”
P.O. Box 1281
Orange, CA 92868
(714) 771-0652
http://www.SpecialBooks.com

Best Always, Doug

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Thanks Don:
Douglas Westfall
The Paragon Agency — Producers of “My American History”
P.O. Box 1281
Orange, CA 92868
(714) 771-0652
http://www.SpecialBooks.com

best Always, Doug

don barker
Guest
don barker

send me your mailing address USPS and I will send you a print. DON

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Dear Mr. Barker: I would really like to see that photo. If the China Clipper (NC14716) then it’s WWII photo or before. The plane crashed in Feb of 1945 in Trinidad. I’m putting together a book on the clippers during wartime, from the memoirs of a First Radio Officer.

Best Regards, Douglas

Douglas Westfall, Publisher
The Paragon Agency, Producers of America’s History

Douglas Westfall
Guest

Dear Mr. Baker: I would appreciate hearing your story. I’m presently putting together a book on the clippers during wartime, from the memoirs of a First Radio Officer who flew the Clilppers. — you may have been on the same flight.
Best Regards, Douglas

Douglas Westfall, Publisher
The Paragon Agency, Producers of America’s History

John Terras
Guest
John Terras

While going through my late fathers negitives I came across a photo of a PanAm Clipper. I have had little luck identifing which plane it is since the tail number is not visible in the photo. I believe it is a Sikorsky S-42. I think the photo was taken between 1936 and 1941. The photo was taken in Florida. I know that the family had taken a trip to Cuba in 1940 as I have 8mm movies of the trip and the plane. I will send you a ccopy of the photo if you would like. Any information you can… Read more »

Vanuel G. Baker, USN (Ret)
Guest
Vanuel G. Baker, USN (Ret)

While writing my memoir for my grandchildren, I wrote about my brother, sister and myself leaving Dinner Key, bound for San Juan in 1941, aboard an S-42 Clipper. My brother and I were but nine years old, but we were so impressed that we can still remember the trip, as though it were a couple of days ago. A FABULOUS airplane!!!! If you would care for a copy of our trip, please advise. Respectfully, V.G.B.

DON BARKER
Guest

Gret reading. I have an original photograph taken, believe, in Cuba, of NC14716, the beautiful Sweet-sixteen. If you care for a copy of the b/w photograph write to me or mail request to; Don Barker, 304-3rd St SE, CONOVER NC 28613.

Jim Schultejans
Guest
Jim Schultejans

Guys, I am new to researching flying boats, but another great book, “Night Over Water”, by Ken Follett has got me going. Flying boats are definitely cool! Do you think there is any chance at all that someone will build a couple to be used as high-end vacation travel? Picture it. Leave Boston, or some other east coast city, and land in some lagoon in the caribean, taxing up to the beach, yards away from your palm frond cabin! I’d pay for it. Thanks for setting up a great site! Mr. McClay, your books are next on my list!

Jill Luckey
Guest
Jill Luckey

I have a photo (actually two) signed and dated (11/20/31). One signature is definitely Lindbergh’s and the other one apparently is by the other pilot which I can’t make out although I think his first initial is “Y”. On the back is written “American Clipper at ______ Fuegos, Cuba. _______ Chas. Lindbergh Chief Pilot Nov. 20 1931 enroute Miami to Jamaica – Maiden Voyage. Passengers E.D. Rea (from Fort Myers, FL) and Alice Davenport.” I can’t make out the words in two places. Since the photos pre-date the above info, can you give me any more information. The photos were… Read more »

randy gibb
Guest
randy gibb

I am writing a book on ‘aviation visual perception’ and would like to use the photo on this webpage of the S-42…I discuss a mishap in the san juan harbor from 1941 involving a flying clipper. May I use the photo? I will reference this webpage.
many thanks
rg

Jamie Dodson
Guest

David “Mac” McLay,

Thank you for your interest. Please visit my website at http://www.nickgrantadventures.com for ordering information. If you order from me, vice the other retail websites, I can sign and dedicate the copy to whomever you wish.

Can you tell me a bit about your career with Pan Am? I’m just back from Oshkosh, and met many retired and former Pan Am employees. I was no more that a passenger and rode in the back… ;o). However, I am a member of the Pan Am Historical Foundation and American Aviation Historical Society.

Cheers! Jamie

David "Mac" McLay
Guest
David "Mac" McLay

Good Day, Jamie —
Please let me know when your new PAA novel is published, and I can relay the info to our Clipper Pioneers (retired PAA cockpit crewmember) site. Many thanks. Where can I find “Flying Boats and Spies”?

Jamie Dodson
Guest

What a great airplane! It was a co-star in my first Pan Am novel, ‘Flying Boats & Spies’. Captain Ed Musick was quoted as saying, “It’s my favorite Clipper. She got the stuff and handles as sweet as you please.” It’s a shame the S-42 fuel dump system was so treacherous. We may never know what happened to the Samoan Clipper but we do know it happened during fuel dumping off Samoa and killed all aboard. My next Pan Am Clipper novel is due for release in September. It’s called the “CHINA CLIPPER.” More about the M-130 but still an… Read more »